26. Be the Outlier: Breaking the Marketing Mold to Tell Your Unique Story

Teresa Diep (00:00):

I said, “We’re gonna do things a little differently. Because I see all the marketing out there for law firms, and we’re not doing that.” So we were one of the first few firms to actually start our social media. And I think it caught on because we were doing things so differently, you know? Um, and yeah. So it’s been a, it’s been a wild ride ever since.

Maria Monroy (00:26):

In law school, attorneys are taught to challenge everything. Tear things apart, break them down. But the qualities that make lawyers great can be some of the worst for running a business. At every stage of growth, running a business and practicing law can feel overwhelming. And what happens when you try to add life and family to the mix? It can feel nearly impossible. You don’t have to do this alone. I’m Maria Monroy, president and co-founder of LawRank, a leading SEO agency for ambitious law firms. Each week we hear from the industry leaders on what it really takes to run a law firm, from marketing to manifestation. Because success lies in the balance of life and law, we’re here to help you Tip the Scales.

Today, I am live with Teresa Diep. So today we talked about branding, hiring a marketing coordinator or director of marketing, and Law-Di-Gras.

Well, thank you for joining me today. I appreciate it.

Teresa Diep (01:20):

Yeah, I’m excited to be here.

Maria Monroy (01:21):

Yeah, me too. So let’s get to it. I know a lot of people in California know who you are, but even then, I feel like for as involved as you are in our space. Like you’re very, like, you’re like a shadow. Like you’re, like, secretive.

Teresa Diep (01:38):

I like to be in the background of things. I don’t always love to be in the front, so.

Maria Monroy (01:44):

Well, today you get to be in the front.

Teresa Diep (01:45):

Being in front of the camera is always kind of uncomfortable for me ‘cause, you know?

Maria Monroy (01:48):

Really?

Teresa Diep (01:49):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (01:50):

You own a video production agency.

Teresa Diep (01:52):

I know, but that’s, you know. That’s why I’m behind the camera.

Maria Monroy (01:55):

True, true.

Teresa Diep (01:56):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (01:57):

All right. So tell everyone your name and your multiple titles. We might run out of time.

Teresa Diep (02:03):

Yeah. So, uh, my name is Teresa Diep. Um, I am the founder of Outlier Creative Agency. I am a co-founder of Justice HQ. Uh, I’m the CEO of the May Firm. Um, I recently left, uh, VP of marketing at Esquire Tek, which is a legal tech company, which I loved. Great position there. Um, I’m also a partner at Athea Trial Services, which provides, um, trial presentations and virtual courtroom, which does focus groups for, um, for trial.

Maria Monroy (02:40):

And how did you get into this space?

Teresa Diep (02:44):

Oh, God. Um, Bob Simon.

Maria Monroy (02:48):

. It’s always Bob. I swear, every episode lately. That’s because we’re recording at Justice HQ.

Teresa Diep (02:53):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (02:54):

So a lot.

Teresa Diep (02:55):

It’s the Bob Show. Yeah.

Maria Monroy (02:57):

Yeah. Lately, I, I don’t know. I swear I, he didn’t pay me or anything.

Teresa Diep (03:00):

I met Bob, um, at a bar that I was working at, uh, twenty years ago. And during that time I was doing a lot of events for studios. And so he said, “Hey, I have a, I have a law firm party that I need to throw. Would you mind doing it?” I was like, “Of course!” You know? And so we started doing events together early on and the crazier the events got, the more exciting it was for me. ‘Cause we did, we did some crazy shit. I mean, we did a wrestling event where we had actual wrestlers, and Bob was in the ring.

Maria Monroy (03:38):

No.

Teresa Diep (03:39):

Yes he was. Performing.

Maria Monroy (03:40):

I can’t believe I missed this stuff.

Teresa Diep (03:41):

Oh, I, I gotta show you videos. This is amazing. Uh, we did an Octoberfest event. Um, we did a lip sync party. Like we just had some crazy ideas, and we had a really good working relationship. And so years, years and years ago, he asked me if I would come on and do marketing for him. And at the time, you know, I was working for a tech company in sales and I was like, “You know what? I really don’t know too much about it, but I’m, I’m happy to learn.” And, but I said, “We’re gonna do things a little differently. Because I see all the marketing out there for law firms, and we’re not doing that.” So we were one of the first few firms to actually start our social media. And I think it caught on because we were doing things so differently, you know? Um, and yeah. So it’s been a, it’s been a wild ride ever since.

Maria Monroy (04:39):

Yeah. I mean it’s like, that was, like, the beginning, but there’s been so much since.

Teresa Diep (04:44):

Yeah. since then. Yeah.

Maria Monroy (04:47):

One other thing that Teresa is involved in is Law-Di-Gras.

Teresa Diep (04:51):

Yes.

Maria Monroy (04:53):

And Bourbon of Proof. I, I would assume?

Teresa Diep (04:54):

Bourbon of Proof. Yeah. Um, so Law-Di-Gras came about when I started working with Bob, and he wanted to do a conference. And I said, “Okay, like everything else we do, it has to be different.” So I said, “Why don’t we do a festival-themed conference for lawyers?” And so we came out with the idea of kind of calling it Lawchella, but then we got from the good folks of who own a Coachella gave us a cease and desist.

Maria Monroy (05:22):

You’re kidding me.

Teresa Diep (05:22):

No. So we had to change the name to Law-Di-Gras, but you know, we kept it festival themed, and we had performers, and I wanted just to create, like, that outdoor festival vibe.

Maria Monroy (05:35):

Oh, it totally has that.

Teresa Diep (05:36):

Thank you.

Maria Monroy: (05:37):
The other day I, I said to someone like, “Yeah, no, I never wear tennis shoes.” And they were like, “Yeah, you do! You wore Converse at Law-Di-Gras!” And I was like, “Okay, well that doesn’t count!” . Like, but yeah, it’s a total — it totally has that vibe, for sure. It’s my favorite conference.

Teresa Diep (05:54):

Aw. That says, that says a lot since you go to a lot of conferences.

Maria Monroy (05:57):

And I say it openly. People ask me all the time, and I say Law-Di-Gras, hands down.

Teresa Diep (06:00):

That’s amazing. Yeah. I mean, we wanted to create something that was casual and different, you know, and bring in arts and music and things that are different that, you know. I mean, lawyers are not one dimensional. They’re, they’re people at the end of the day, and they enjoy those things. So why not bring it all together and then add the family element to it? Because, you know, you spend a lot of time away from your family going to conferences and doing business. Why can’t we just meld the two? Why can’t we have that? And so I think we’ve done a pretty good job at being able to establish that.

Maria Monroy (06:39):

You done an amazing job.

Teresa Diep (06:40):

Aw, thank you.

Maria Monroy (06:41):

And you know, I don’t lie.

Teresa Diep (06:43):

I know, you’re very blunt.

Maria Monroy (06:45):

I am. If I, if I didn’t like your conference, you, you would not be here right now. It your con— like, Law-Di-Gras is by far. It’s just such a good time. Such a good, fun time. I love it.

Teresa Diep (06:52):

Thank you.

Maria Monroy (06:53):

Um, okay, so I have a question for you. When it comes to marketing and branding, Teresa is, like, the person I call, like, when I have an idea, and I know she’s gonna tell me, like, “No, I don’t like it.” Or “Yes, I do like it.” Or “Why don’t you do this?” And she’s, like, brilliant when it comes to marketing and branding and that sort of thing.

Teresa Diep (07:18):

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Maria Monroy (07:19):

So what, like, what do you think firms have to do nowadays — in particular, PI firms — to really stand out?

Teresa Diep (07:29):

You know, when we do an assessment with a firm, the first thing we ask them is, “What’s your story?” And most people don’t know what their story is until you kind of start talking to them. “Tell me a little bit about how you grew up. What do you — what did you do before your firm?” And that sort of conversation, we explore who they really are. And I think that’s the first step in identifying — especially in branding — is identifying your story and how would that resonate to your audience.

Maria Monroy (08:02):

So you think that’s like step number one, like —

Teresa Diep (08:04):

Step number one.

Maria Monroy (08:06):

Before you go do anything, you really have to figure that out.

Teresa Diep (08:08):

Absolutely.

Maria Monroy (08:10):

And then what? So now they have a story. What do you think is the best way to get that across to their potential clients?

Teresa Diep (08:17):

Well, I think it depends. I think it depends on —

Maria Monroy (08:19):

Don’t give me the lawyer answer.

Teresa Diep (08:21):

I know we’re so, we’re so used to using that word. “It depends.” But I think it depends on who they’re trying to reach and what their goals are. You know, because everyone has different goals. You know, you could be a firm that only takes referrals because you’re a trial firm. You wanna only take the, you know, the top cases. Or you can be a pre-litigation firm and be talking to a completely different — different audience. You’re talking to consumers now who are looking you up on Google. So it just depends on what your goals are.

Maria Monroy (08:51):

And your target audience.

Teresa Diep (08:52):

And exactly.

Maria Monroy (08:53):

Right. Like, ‘cause Bob does a great job with — and again, the Bob Show. I’m gonna rename — rename it. Um, he does a great job with his, um, Instagram, but he’s really, he’s targeting other lawyers. He’s not targeting necessarily the average person that’s been in a car accident.

Teresa Diep (09:10):

Right.

Maria Monroy (09:11):

And I’m not saying that might not kind of happen naturally, but they’re not a — your typical advertising firm. Like, I can’t imagine the Simon Law Group having a billboard or anything like that. Who knows, maybe they’ll get there someday. But he knows his target audience.

Teresa Diep (09:28):

He knows it well.

Maria Monroy (09:30):

Right?

Teresa Diep (09:31):

Yeah. And it’s something we talk about all the time. You know, I mean everything that he puts out, all the content that he puts out is how do — you know, for the younger lawyers — how do you start your own firm, and how do you build it and give you all the resources and education on that. But also for the trial attorneys, he gives them useful content and education on that. And that is so important. And that’s why people love to follow him. One, he’s obviously, he has such a character, he’s such a personality. He has a likability about him. Um, but most importantly he gives value to his audience.

Maria Monroy (10:06):

And how do you think a firm that — Let’s say it’s a firm that their target audience is, you know, the average person that’s been in a car accident. Let’s say that they are a trial firm, they go to trial. What do you think the best way to get clients is?

Teresa Diep (10:21):

If they are a trial firm?

Maria Monroy (10:22):

Yes.

Teresa Diep (10:23):

I think the best way to get clients, well if they’re a trial firm, then their, their target audience is other referral attorneys.

Maria Monroy (10:33):

We’ll get the calls from a trial lawyer that doesn’t wanna continue to pay that 30 to 50 percent fee. So they’re like, “It’s great. I get all these referrals, and that’s great. However, I wanna generate my own, my own cases.” Right? Why are you laughing? Everyone’s dream?

Teresa Diep (10:51):

No, no, no. I get that question so much. And I think that they forget that once you open up to the consumer, you have to sift through —

Maria Monroy (10:59):

Oh absolutely.

Teresa Diep (11:00):

So many cases to get that case that you actually want. And so my answer to them when they say that is, “Are you prepared to do that?”

Maria Monroy (11:10):

Absolutely. And this is when I do too, like I’m on calls like, “Okay, so if all of your cases are coming for referrals, what’s your intake like? And do you understand that your intake is either just signing, just taking a case that’s already been signed by another lawyer, or if it’s a client referral, well that’s a really warm lead, but are you ready to handle a cold lead? Cause that’s very different than a warm lead. And I’ve had firms that have said to me like, “That sounds awful.” And I’m like, “Well then, marketing’s not for you.”

Teresa Diep (11:40):

Mm-hmm. .

Maria Monroy (11:41):

And that’s the end of it. But there are a lot of trial lawyers that do wanna generate their own cases and are willing to, I would argue, change the structure of the firm to some extent. Cause I, I do think it, it’s very different to do that, to get those leads in those cases.

Teresa Diep (12:01):

Yeah. In my experience, I just haven’t found a trial firm that wants to go to direct-to-consumer that’s willing to do the work.

Maria Monroy (12:09):

That’s all of our clients.

Teresa Diep (12:10):

They’re willing to do the work to get the cases?

Maria Monroy (12:13):

All of ours. And so most of our clients are trialers. They’re actually in trial every year.

Teresa Diep (12:18):

So they have a pretty big intake team.

Maria Monroy (12:21):

They don’t, but they start building one and they start with —

Teresa Diep (12:24):

Mm-hmm. .

Maria Monroy (12:25):

They start with one, and they add another, then they have an intake manager, you know, somebody that manages. It just depends on the firm. Every firm does it differently.

Teresa Diep (12:28):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (12:29):

And don’t get me wrong, intake is, like, such an annoying part of our industry, because it really makes or breaks a firm, and it impacts how we look. So if a firm doesn’t have great intake, that can get imputed to us. Yeah. Like we, we have a firm right now that had 20 percent missed calls. We, we have a, another firm that had like almost 200 calls missed in one month.

Teresa Diep (12:54):

Oh, my God. In a month?

Maria Monroy (12:56):

In a month.

Teresa Diep (12:57):

Wow.

Maria Monroy (12:58):

Like an absurd amount that we were like, this is not. Like, how do we —

Teresa Diep (13:04):

Yeah. That reflects badly on you.

Maria Monroy (13:05):

It does.

Teresa Diep (13:06):

Because yeah. There’s — it’s not equaling to sign cases.

Maria Monroy (13:10):

I mean, it still is, but I’m like, well you would have more —

Teresa Diep (13:12):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (13:13):

If you didn’t miss all these calls. Right? And I get that some are hangups and bots and whatever, but not that number. Like that’s a really freaking high number to have.

Teresa Diep (13:23):

Yeah. You know, it’s interesting that you say that because I’ve, you know, in the time that I’ve consulted with firms, the ones that are trial firms that wanna go direct to consumer, I say, “What’s your intake like?” And they’re like, “We don’t really have any.”

Maria Monroy (13:36):

No, they typically don’t.

Teresa Diep (13:37):

Yeah. It’s almost always they say, “Well, that’s not really a route that we wanna go. Let’s go B2B.”

Maria Monroy (13:43):

Yeah. No, I mean, with us again, it’s. Okay. Like, we will set it up. And now we’ve even had firms that — I have one particular firm I can think of that said, “I’m gonna set up the intake team, and then I’ll call you.” And they did. They set up the intake team.

Teresa Diep (13:53):

That’s amazing.

Maria Monroy (13:54):

They set up all the stuff, and then they started with us.

Teresa Diep (14:04):

See, that’s a very rare thing. I mean, what you’re doing at LawRank is probably what — how — what you should be doing. You’re, you’re more concerned about the client’s outcome than just taking their business.

Maria Monroy (14:15):

Oh, absolutely.

Teresa Diep (14:16):

You know, because most SEO companies out there will just say, “We’ll just do it for you.” And they don’t really ask them about their operations, because they don’t care ‘cause they’re still taking that money from you every month. You know? But what you’re doing, you’re doing it right. You’re doing it properly.

Maria Monroy (14:31):

No, thank you. I appreciate that. I would like to, to think that as well. Because for us, if it’s not — it has to be sustainable, right? Yeah. And our reputation is everything. So you have to think long term. You can’t think, “Oh, well, I’ll take their money, tell ’em what they wanna hear, and then they can leave us a year later.”

Teresa Diep (14:41):

Yeah. Yeah.

Maria Monroy (14:42):

Yeah, but what about my reputation?

Teresa Diep (14:44):

Yep.

Maria Monroy (14:45):

And that’s just not the right thing to do. Like if we talk about like values or like being a good human , you know? Um —

Teresa Diep (15:00):

We could talk about that all day.

Maria Monroy (15:02):

Yeah. But I wanna focus more on branding and, like, what you’re seeing. ‘Cause I’m seeing like this crazy shift. We’re seeing such an influx of lawyers doing social media.

Teresa Diep (15:13):

Oh, yeah. I mean when we first started out, we were probably one of the first few, and now everyone. It — you have to have one to be relevant.

Maria Monroy (15:22):

You think so?

Teresa Diep (15:23):

I think so. I think a hundred percent. And I think that —

Maria Monroy (15:25):

But what if you’re not good at it? ‘Cause I see some, and I’m like, “Yeah, no. I don’t know why —“

Teresa Diep (15:31):

There’s a lot that are not good at it.

Maria Monroy (15:32):

I’m like, “Why are you even trying?” Is that mean? But I just like — I’m of the belief of, like, do it right or don’t do it.

Teresa Diep (15:39):

Well, I think that there’s ways to do it where you don’t come off. Some of the stuff that I see on social media now, people come off douchy.

Maria Monroy (15:41):

Mm-hmm.

Teresa Diep (15:42):

And they think that that’s what people wanna see. And it’s really not the case. Um, but I think that the younger generation are looking up resources and finding people off of social media. Like I know, for me, when I’m trying to find out about a company, I’m going in their Instagram, and I’m going in their TikTok.

Maria Monroy (16:09):

Really?

Teresa Diep (16:10):

A hundred percent.

Maria Monroy (16:12):

And not that you’re old, but you’re not 20.

Teresa Diep (16:15):

No.

Maria Monroy (16:16):

I mean, you kind of look 20 , but you’re not.

Teresa Diep (16:18):

Asian del Raisin .

Maria Monroy (16:20):

You’re, like, ridiculous.

Teresa Diep (16:22):

But it’s true. The, I mean, the younger generation is doing that. And so you have to meet your consumers where they are. Right? And I think that that’s why I think TikTok — and I was saying this three years ago. I was saying that, like, it is untapped market, and now it’s saturated. There’s so many attorneys on, uh, TikTok now, but back then there wasn’t a lot. And that was one of the things that I suggested to Taly. And I said, “You need to get on TikTok.” And she had huge success doing that.

Maria Monroy (16:51):

She still does.

Teresa Diep (16:52):

Mm-hmm. .

Maria Monroy (16:53):

That’s how she gets all of her business.

Teresa Diep (16:57):

Yeah. Isn’t that, isn’t that amazing though when you’re, when you’re talking about how people used to find attorneys and transitioning now to social media, and people don’t believe that, like, the old school people —

Maria Monroy (17:08):

Oh, no, no, no.

Teresa Diep (17:09):

Don’t believe that.

Maria Monroy (17:10):

I mean, the old school people don’t even think SEO works. And I’m like, “Buddy, it’s been, like, 10 years. Like, I don’t know what to tell you.”

Teresa Diep (17:14):

Yeah. SEO is — I mean if you wanna be successful, I think you have to have a good SEO strategy.

Maria Monroy (17:21):

I mean, they all work together. Brian White out of Houston, perfect example. Trial lawyer, you know, came to us with really very little marketing. Although he had tried stuff in the past and had an SEO strategy that didn’t work for a long time. He came to us. We took him from 400 active cases to 1,100 from just SEO. But then he started doing social media videos, and his TikToks are hilarious. They’re amazing. They’re very much, like, what he wants to put on. You know, he’s not trying to be anyone else. Like it’s what he finds funny. Like, he does his own thing. And then he did, I think, 83 billboards initially. He’s at over a hundred now, which is atypical. You typically don’t see, like, again, a trial firm go from not really doing any of this to doing it all.

Teresa Diep (18:04):

Mm-hmm. .

Maria Monroy (18:05):

But what we see is that it’s worked amazing for him to have — they all spill over into one another, because somebody sees him on TikTok, and then they Google and they see him, and then they call because, oh, they remember it’s this TikTok lawyer, right? Or they see the billboard, and then they Google “car accident lawyer,” and the same concept, right?

Teresa Diep (18:22):

Right.

Maria Monroy (18:23):

So I think they work very well together. And I think the more that you do right, the lower your cost per conversion or cost per case is gonna be.

Teresa Diep (18:38):

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think that, uh, when people talk to me about, you know, being hesitant about being on social media, either because they’re shy or they just don’t know the right kind of content. I think you need to figure out which platform works for you. Because not everybody can be a Brian White or a Bob Simon, or they don’t really have the likability to be on camera. Maybe LinkedIn is your platform of choice. You know, write articles, write posts that are, you know, thought-provoking. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to fall in that trap of creating content like everybody else, because maybe you don’t have the personality for it. It doesn’t come off that great. You know? Or be on Twitter, you know, uh, there’s a lot of different social media platforms that doesn’t require you to be a character. And I think people fall into that trap that they think they need to be. And it’s like, that’s not, if that’s not your authentic self, don’t do it.

Maria Monroy (19:39):

That’s great advice. I’d never even thought about Twitter or LinkedIn.

Teresa Diep (19:45):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (19:46):

And in a way, it’s actually — might even be beneficial, ‘cause everyone is so hyper-focused on reels and TikToks —

Teresa Diep (19:49):

Mm-hmm.

Maria Monroy (19:50):

That they’re probably not as focused. And, like, I’m like the first one to admit, I don’t remember the last time I posted on LinkedIn. Although I have tons of, like, connections on there.

Teresa Diep (20:01):

Yeah. I mean, I think that if you’re B2B, I think LinkedIn is great.

Maria Monroy (20:04):

What do you think will be the n— do you think like there’s gonna be a next big thing? Because, I mean, I think social has and is right now, but —

Teresa Diep (20:11):

Yeah, I mean I think YouTube Shorts is underutilized right now, and I think that Google’s gonna make a really big push for that.

Maria Monroy (20:18):

Because did you know — and maybe I’m wrong about this one, but I’m pretty sure I’m not — that YouTube is the number-one platform for podcasts?

Teresa Diep (20:25):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (20:26):

We’ve talked about this, haven’t we?

Teresa Diep (20:27:):
Yes. Yeah.

Maria Monroy (29:28):

I didn’t know that. That, that’s why we just started our YouTube channel. I had no idea.

Teresa Diep (20:33):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (20:34):

I mean, and if that’s the case and it’s, like, the number-one search engine, I think maybe did TikTok outdo it. No. Right?

Teresa Diep (20:40):

I think TikTok is pretty up there. I know that they’re, they’re creating their platform to be more of a search console.

Maria Monroy (20:46):

Really?

Teresa Diep (20:47):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (20:48):

TikTok.

Teresa Diep (20:49):

TikTok is.

Maria Monroy (20:50):

Interesting.

Teresa Diep (20:51):

So you’re gonna be able to find things through keywords.

Maria Monroy (20:53):

No.

Teresa Diep (20:54):

Yeah, it’s happening.

Maria Monroy (20:55):

Ooh. Could we SEO for TikTok?

Teresa Diep (20:57):

There you go.

Maria Monroy (20:58):

I need to look into this.

Teresa Diep (20:59):

There you go.

Maria Monroy (21:00):

. See, I’m learning.

Teresa Diep (21:02):

You just expanded your services.

Maria Monroy (21:04):

I know. So YouTube Shorts.

Teresa Diep (21:06):

Google’s been saying that they’ve been, they’re trying to push that hard. I haven’t seen that. You know, there’s always a moment where a platform just kind of switches over, and it just becomes this massive thing. It hasn’t happened yet, but I think it will. Because I mean, you’re talking about Google here. I mean, the search starts with them, you know?

Maria Monroy (21:27):

Absolutely. That’s exciting. I like the vi — I like video.

Teresa Diep (21:31):

I do, too. I love video content. I mean that’s, you know, that’s our bread and butter at Outlier.

Maria Monroy (21:36):

At Outlier.

Teresa Diep (21:37):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (21:38):

Yeah. And you guys do everything from, like, a brand video to actually shooting TikToks, right? And helping a client with —

Teresa Diep (21:47):

Reels, TikToks. But I think that one of the things that we do really well is documentaries. We’ll take a case that someone has either the success story of that or if it’s a case that they want the general public to know. One of the examples is one of our clients, um, was looking for victims in a state where the coach was abusing these kids. And so we created this documentary talking about the history of this coach and made it very cinematic. I mean, it looked like a documentary, and they ran ads off of it. And they got a ton of clients by doing that because it was so — it was not, it’s not an infomercial. You’re really telling a story, and it allowed people to really engage in it and talk about it. And so it became a really good strategy for them. So every time they have a new case that they really want the public to know about, we create that documentary.

Maria Monroy (22:47)
Do you do it for mass torts as well, or not really?

Teresa Diep (22:51):

Um, not really. Well, this one was a sex abuse case.

Maria Monroy (22:55):

Right. Which, it falls under that. But I mean more like, you know, Zantac or Camp Lejeune or something like that.

Teresa Diep (23:02):

No, we haven’t done one for that. I think it could, I think you can apply the same formula, but we just haven’t done it.

Maria Monroy (23:07):

Yeah. I’m curious if that, if that would work.

Teresa Diep (23:10):

Yeah, it probably would. I mean, you can tell a compelling story. People are more attracted to that than anything, you know, and do it in a very cinematic way.

Maria Monroy (23:19):

So I know everyone talks about, like, okay, it does not, like, video doesn’t have to be like super high-quality. It’s just like very fast, right? Kinda reminds me of like fast fashion nowadays, right?. But I still think that there is something to be said about quality, you know?

Teresa Diep (23:34):

Mm-hmm.

Maria Monroy (23:35):

Content.

Teresa Diep (23:36):

Yep.

Maria Monroy (23:37):

Do you agree?

Teresa Diep (23:39):

I totally agree. I think people will watch it longer when they know that there’s like, if there’s high production to it. I mean, when you’re talking about social media though, I think that these quick videos, what it allows you to do is pump out —

Maria Monroy (23:52):

A lot —

Teresa Diep (23:53):

A shit-ton of content quickly. But I like, like, our Bourbon Approved series, which is, you know, a sit-down full production. And I think people like that as well. So I think that the low-quality quick stuff is great for quantity, but for quality, I like the high production stuff.

Maria Monroy (24:16):

I agree. I mean, I like high-end things in general. So it’s one of the reasons I

Teresa Diep (24:21):

I know! Maria will never stay at a Motel Six. You’ll never find her there.

Maria Monroy (24:27):

I’ve, I never have. I never want to. But just in general, right? So I think for me, it’s one of the things that I struggle with a bit with social. Like I’m getting over the idea that I’m just, like, recording on my iPhone and, like, adding a filter and, like, couple transitions and, like, sending it out to the world, right? Like —

Teresa Diep (24:50):

Mm-hmm.

Maria Monroy (24:51):

And with certain things, I think I’m more of a perfectionist. So, like, what advice would you have to someone that feels like they have to have these, like, perfect videos on social?

Teresa Diep (25:00):

There’s no such thing as a perfect video, I don’t think. You know, I mean, yeah, you can make ’em look good, but you can always constantly do better. And if you go by that mentality, you’re never gonna put out stuff. And I think it’s better to put —

Maria Monroy (25:14):

Then that’s literally what’s happened to me.

Teresa Diep (25:15):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (25:16):

I’ll do Insta stories all day, but, like, TikToks or —

Teresa Diep (25:20):

That’s a great example.

Maria Monroy (25:21):

Reels. I have such a block with them.

Teresa Diep (25:24):

Yeah. That’s a great example.

Maria Monroy (25:26):

Yeah.

Teresa Diep (25:27):

Because your Insta stories do really well.

Maria Monroy (25:29):

Yeah.

Teresa Diep (25:30):

Right? Like people are looking at that.

Maria Monroy (25:31):

Yes.

Teresa Diep (25:32):

They don’t necessarily need you to clean that up and put transitions in it.

Maria Monroy (25:35):

Right.

Teresa Diep (25:36):

You’re just speaking plainly and naturally. And I think people are attracted to that.

Maria Monroy (25:41):

Yeah. I mean, and it feels like, like we talk about authenticity, and, like, Taly talks about it too. Which I feel like that word has gotten a bad rap, but it, I, it feels authentic to me, the way that I go on social. Right?

Teresa Diep (25:53):

Yeah, absolutely.

Maria Monroy (25:54):

And I think that’s really important, ‘causeI see some videos of lawyers, and it just feels so forced. I’m like, don’t do social just because you feel like you have to. Like if you’re gonna do it, do it in a way that you’re passionate about it, and, like, you are enjoying it, and you’re having fun with it. Do you know what I mean?

Teresa Diep (26:09):

Yeah. A hundred percent.

Maria Monroy (26:10):

Instead of like, let me just do this video with zero energy, super monotone. Like, doesn’t even make sense. “I’m just, like, rambling.” Like, I’m like —

Teresa Diep (26:20):

I hate that sort of content.

Maria Monroy (26:22):

I’m seeing it a lot right now.

Teresa Diep (26:23):

I know.

Maria Monroy (26:24):

And I’m not criticizing, I’m trying to help , whoever’s listening and they’re like, “Oh, maybe I fall, you know, under that category.” Like what can they do to make it better? Or if it just isn’t for them, like, you know, we’re giving you permission to not have to do it.

Teresa Diep (26:40):

Yeah. I think explore other things.

Maria Monroy (26:42):

Yeah.

Teresa Diep (26:43):

Write blogs.

Maria Monroy (26:44):

Go to Twitter.

Teresa Diep (26:45):

Tweet. Yeah.

Maria Monroy (26:46):

Yeah. LinkedIn. I, I like —

Teresa Diep (26:48):

I mean Twitter is still alive. It’s, you know. I think it’s finding that right platform for you. Some people are great at videos, some people are better at writing.

Maria Monroy (26:56):

Do you think it’s important for a firm to do, like, branding and to work on their brand?

Teresa Diep (27:03):

Absolutely.

Maria Monroy (27:04):

Like, from logo to colors to story, everything.

Teresa Diep (27:07):

Absolutely.

Maria Monroy (27:08):

What’s, like, the biggest mistake that you see over and over?

Teresa Diep (27:13):

Um, I think I see mostly people not identifying with — like, not having a story. Like, when you talk to them about their firm, they talk about, like, all the technical things. You know, like, “Oh there’s, like, twenty people, blah, blah blah.” But they don’t really talk about what their firm is about. And I think people wanna know what your firm is about. You know? And I think that is so important. That resonates more. If you’re telling me a story, it’s gotta resonate more than you giving me stats about, “Oh I’ve got twenty attorneys, you know, sixty employees.” I’m like, “That’s not really what I’m asking. You know, what is your firm about?”

Maria Monroy (27:52):

But should that include like their settlements and like case results? Or you’re just talking about, like, more of, like, the human element? Like why they do what they do and how they do it and what’s important to them?

Teresa Diep (28:03):

Yes. A hundred percent.

Maria Monroy (28:04):

The latter.

Teresa Diep (28:05):

The latter. But I think you also need to have all the other stuff, too, to back it up, right? Like you have to have the story, but you also have to have the credibility. Being able to settle cases and have verdicts and things like that. You need to have that on your website. But it doesn’t mean that your brand story is, like, absent from your website. I think it should be front and center, and it should also, you know — people wanna see that you have success, so that you wanna put your settlements and verdicts also upfront. But I think the biggest thing is making sure that you have a brand story to tell. I think everyone should have a brand video.

Maria Monroy (28:45):

Oh, I a thousand percent agree. That’s like one of the first recommendations. We’re like, “Get reviews, and get us some videos.”

Teresa Diep (29:00)
Yeah.

Maria Monroy (29:01):

“Like that’s what you can do to help.” Yeah. Right. Now let’s go back to conferences and, cause there’s so many conferences now, . Like, it’s exhausting. I — can just, like, a couple conferences, like, merge or something? ‘Cause I’m having a hard time keeping up. Um, what’s gonna be exciting about Law-Di-Gras this year?

Teresa Diep (29:17):

Uh —

Maria Monroy (29:18):

Give us some scoop. Like, come on.

Teresa Diep (29:20):

Okay. Well we’re, we’re gonna do a talent show. On Friday. So normally, we used to have music on Friday and Saturday, but we found that there were so many attorneys and, you know, legal industry people that have all these hidden talents, whether they play guitar or they sing. And we’re like, wouldn’t that be fun to have a talent show? And that winner of the talent show gets to open for the headliner on Saturday.

Maria Monroy (29:48):

And who’s the headliner?

Teresa Diep (29:51):

I can’t really say, but there are some very, very high profile musicians that we’re talking to for the Saturday performance.

Maria Monroy (30:01):

When will you know?

Teresa Diep (30:03):

Well, you know, we’re in contract negotiation — negotiations with a few, so we should know soon.

Maria Monroy (30:09):

And what about that kid that played last year?

Teresa Diep (30:13):

Oh, David Snyder.

Maria Monroy (30:14):

Yes.

Teresa Diep (30:15):

Yeah. So he works for the agency. He’s a piano prodigy.

Maria Monroy (30:21):

Is he gonna play again?

Teresa Diep (30:22):

Yeah, he will definitely be there.

Maria Monroy (30:23)”
What, when is he playing?

Teresa Diep (30:25):

Uh, he’ll be playing Friday night.

Maria Monroy (30:27):

He was ridiculous. I remember you kept telling me, like, ‘cause I missed him the first day.

Teresa Diep (30:28):

Yes.

Maria Monroy (30:29):

And you kept telling me, like, “Maria, you have to see him. Like, you can’t miss him tomorrow.” And I really was like, “I don’t even know this kid.” Like, I was like, so I’m — cause I know you’re super into music.

Teresa Diep (30:37):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (30:38):

But I am, like, not that into it. Not the way you are. So I was like, “I, who cares?” And I literally was, like, blown away.

Teresa Diep (30:48):

Yeah. He’s amazing

Maria Monroy (30:50):

I — I’m, like, more excited about him than whoever you have.

Teresa Diep (30:53):

Really?

Maria Monroy (30:54):

No, I’m not kidding.

Teresa Diep (30:56):

So funny.

Maria Monroy (30:57):

It was so fun. Like, the way that he does what he does, I don’t even know how to explain it, is like, it’s beau — it’s beautiful.

Teresa Diep (31:01):

It’s beautiful.

Maria Monroy (31:02):

Yeah. It’s literally beautiful. Like, I saw him after and I was like, I took a picture with him. I totally like fangirled him.

Teresa Diep (31:07):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (31:08):

I was like, “You’re amazing. Like, you’re gonna be like —“ he’s gonna, like, blow up one day.

Teresa Diep (31:14):

He’s a, he’s a prodigy. He was on America’s Got Talent.

Maria Monroy (31:17):

Was he?

Teresa Diep (31:20):

Yeah. Um, he didn’t make it to the final round, but you know.

Maria Monroy (31:23):

I can’t believe it.

Teresa Diep (31:24):

Yeah, he got pretty far. I’ll tell you this, we have a saxophonist. Who is —

Maria Monroy (31:31):

The same one I know or no?

Teresa Diep (31:34):

No, I think you’re talking about the violinist.

Maria Monroy (31:36):

Oh yeah, that is. Yeah. See, told you, I’m not into music.

Teresa Diep (31:38):

Different instruments. .

Maria Monroy (31:40):

That’s sound, a sound.

Teresa Diep (31:42):

Um, we have a saxophonist that’s coming. And he is, he’s a talent. And I’m really excited to, to see him play.

Maria Monroy (31:50):

And that’s exciting.

Teresa Diep (31:51):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (31:52):

And, so this time it’s at a different venue.

Teresa Diep (31:54):

Different venue.

Maria Monroy (31:55):

What are the dates? October 19th

Teresa Diep (31:58):

Through the 22nd.

Maria Monroy (31:59):

The fact that I know this.

Teresa Diep (32:00):

Yes.

Maria Monroy (32:01):

And this time the venue’s only, it’s —

Teresa Diep (32:05):

Yeah, we bought out the venue.

Maria Monroy (32:06):

The whole venue.

Teresa Diep (32:07):

The whole venue.

Maria Monroy (32:08):

Wow.

Teresa Diep (32:09):

So it’s all Law-Di-Gras people. There’s this massive pool that’s gonna be sort of the center stage for a lot of the lounging. There’s cabanas. We’re gonna have great education. Bob wanted to make it tech and wellness focus, um, Friday and Saturday in the morning, which I think is great. You know, I think wellness is something that is very much needed in this industry. And so is tech. ‘Cause we all know lawyers are so behind, uh, in tech. So —

Maria Monroy (32:37):

And wellness.

Teresa Diep (32:38):

Yeah. And wellness. And so it’s gonna be good to, to have that and then start the legal education and medical education a little bit later in the day.

Maria Monroy (32:47):

What about the spa?

Teresa Diep (32:49):

Yeah. So we have uh, 50 passes per day to kind of —

Maria Monroy (32:51):

Wow.

Teresa Diep (32:52):

Yeah. Figure out what we’re gonna do with that. Um, the spa is amazing. It’s out— Have you seen it? Have you seen pictures of it?

Maria Monroy (33:04):

No.

Teresa Diep (33:05):

It’s, they have this like zen garden, and the spa rooms are in these like little hut — hut-looking things.

Maria Monroy (33:10):

Mm-hmm. .

Teresa Diep (33:10):

It’s, it’s gorgeous.

Maria Monroy (33:11):

I assume it’s like, you’re there and you don’t leave type of thing.

Teresa Diep (33:14)
Oh yeah, you don’t leave.

Maria Monroy (33:15):

Like you’re just there for three days, and —

Teresa Diep (33:17):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (33:18):

That’s it.

Teresa Diep (33:19):

Yeah. Everything is — You know, we’ve kind of thought about everything. ‘Cause I, I really like immersive experiences for conferences, and I think that, you know, the experience is what makes the conference. Obviously you’re gonna learn, but you can learn that listening to podcasts. You can learn it going to other conferences. But I’m really very focused on the experience. The experience from as soon as you drive up to the conference, what that feels like, when you check in.

Maria Monroy (33:48):

No, it’s a perfectly organized conference.

Teresa Diep (33:51):

Thank you.

Maria Monroy (33:52):

You’re welcome.

Teresa Diep (33:53):

I try, I try.

Maria Monroy (33:54):

No, you guys do a great job. I’m, like, super excited. Okay, so back to marketing. Right now you’re the COO at the May Firm.

Teresa Diep (34:02):

Mm-hmm. .

Maria Monroy (34:03):

And before that, what was your title at the Simon Law Group? Remind me?

Teresa Diep (34:07):

Uh, director of marketing.

Maria Monroy (34:08):

Do you think it’s important for law firms to have a marketing coordinator or director of marketing, something like that within the firm?

Teresa Diep (34:16):

Absolutely.

Maria Monroy (34:17):

And what are some of the roles for these positions? Like, what is it that people should be doing?

Teresa Diep (34:22):

Well, you should be coordinating every single marketing effort that you have. Um, I think at the bigger firms, if you can’t have a marketing team and you’re gonna have agencies that support the marketing person, the coordinator, um, then you could do it that way. But there’s so many skills, and it’s hard, because marketing is so broad.

Maria Monroy (34:48):

It’s so broad. And people ask me, like — Because see, for us, the ideal is there is a marketing coordinator, and they’re the ones looking at all the data, making sure if a firm is doing billboards or sending a newsletter, like, everything has a congruent look and feel, and it’s very consistent, right?

Teresa Diep (34:50)
Mm-hmm. ,

Maria Monroy (34:51):

You don’t have like an old logo somewhere in an old headshot.

Teresa Diep (34:54):

Right.

Maria Monroy (34:55):

And everything’s just up to date and they’re the ones really just looking at what’s working, what’s not working, how do you allocate the money. But a lot of firms are like, “Well, can you give me a job description?” And I’m like, “Okay, well, let me find one.” But like I don’t know how to — like, they don’t even know what to assign to a marketing —

Teresa Diep (35:14):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (35:15):

Coordinator. And I’ve been telling a lot of the, like, I’m not talking about small firms. I’m not talking about, like, a solo practitioner. I’m not talking about huge firms with huge budgets, but I’m talking about a mid-size firm, no marketing person in charge. So we love it when there is a marketing coordinator.

Teresa Diep (35:45):

Yeah, absolutely. It makes your job easier.

Maria Monroy (35:47):

Yeah. And their job easier, because if the managing partners or the owner is still going to trial themselves —

Teresa Diep (35:57):

Oh yeah.

Maria Monroy (35:58):

They don’t have the time to look at this and to make sure that, like, everything’s implemented correctly. Like let’s say they use Filevine. Do they, you know, it’s it connected to everything. Are they able to pull the right reports? That sort of thing. What are your thoughts? Like what were some of the things you did as a director of marketing at the Simon Law Group?

Teresa Diep (36:19):

Yeah, I mean, I handled everything from print ads to events, um to coordinating referral dinners, coordinating, uh, newsletters, uh, correspondence with other firms. I mean, there’s just so much that you have to do. And I think the problem is, when you have a marketing person, is that you expect them to understand and do everything. And what people don’t realize is that there’s so many specialties within marketing that you’re not — it’s very difficult to find that unicorn that can understand all of it, that can understand.

Maria Monroy (36:59):

We’ve struggled with it.

Teresa Diep (37:00):

Oh, I’m sure. It’s hard to find.

Maria Monroy (37:01):

I’ve really struggled with it. We’re still in interviews. They need to know so many different things that we do and have experience to be able to execute. So we’re looking for a director. We’re not looking for a marketing coordinator, because then we have to tell them what to do. I don’t wanna have to tell them what to do. I want them to run with our brand.

Teresa Diep (37:15):

Right.

Maria Monroy (37:16):

Right? But for a law firm, I feel like it is complicated, but I think it’s just so necessary. Just, like, even, like, these little things like planning the dinners or, like, at a community, you know, involvement event or whatever, like, taking the pictures, uploading them on social, and they can be very involved with social.

Teresa Diep (37:33):

Right.

Maria Monroy (37:34):

And newsletters and getting reviews or making sure the team is getting reviews, you know, posting them on social. What do you think?

Teresa Diep (37:45):

Yeah, you know, it’s funny because a lot of firms will try to, uh, skimp on that on a marketing position, and they’ll have like an office manager do the social media posting and expect them — that it’s easy. Oh, you can figure it out. Um, and they get into trouble, you know, and then like the classic example of that is recently there was a defense firm that had an office manager who recorded some stuff while they were having an internal meeting and put it on social media. And that firm said some things that they shouldn’t have been saying.

Maria Monroy (38:13):

Wow.

Teresa Diep (38:14):

And put that out on social media. And so they got a ton of bad press.

Maria Monroy (38:16):

Wow.

Teresa Diep (38:17):

They got in trouble for it.

Maria Monroy (38:19):

That’s crazy. .

Teresa Diep (38:20):

And it was pretty severe. That’s somebody who doesn’t understand marketing, that doesn’t understand that that is not appropriate to put out to the public. So yeah, is it an expensive thing to have a marketing person on your team? Yes. But is it necessary? Absolutely. And I think the bigger you get, the bigger their marketing team needs to get, because there’s so many specialties, you know, as you know.

Maria Monroy (38:57):

And how do they know that the marketing person is doing what they’re supposed to be doing? Because sometimes I feel like marketing it’s so hit or miss and you can get someone that’s just like creating busy work. Like what expectations should you have of a say a marketing coordinator slash director of marketing one person?

Teresa Diep (39:15):

I think you work backwards from what your goals are. Saying “With our marketing efforts, I want to be able to sign more cases,” or “I wanna have more quality of cases,” or “I just want brand exposure,” and work backwards in finding a person who can fill those shoes. That’s the first thing you have to do.

Maria Monroy (39:40):

Right? And then they recommend or they help the firm like, “Hey, this is what we need to do.” Or the firm tells them like, “Okay, we want more cases, and we’re gonna, you know, do you know pay-per-click or we’re gonna do SEO or we’re gonna do whatever it is. Social media, we’re gonna buy leads, whatever it is.” Right? And then they should be looking at the data.

Teresa Diep (39:58):

Right.

Maria Monroy (39:59):

Like for me that’s the biggest thing is like who’s looking at the numbers when it comes to marketing? Right? Like it’s crazy to me how many times I ask a firm like, “Okay, what was your cost per case?”

Teresa Diep (40:08):

Mm-hmm. .

Maria Monroy (40:09):

And they don’t have that.

Teresa Diep (40:10):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (40:11):

To me that’s wild.

Teresa Diep (40:13):

I bet you get that a lot. What percentage would you say?

Maria Monroy (40:19):

90% of the time. Easily.

Teresa Diep (40:21):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (40:22):

Sometimes — they can do the math, like, they don’t know the number, which I just. I think you need to know that number. Because like how do you know what’s working? And I get that everyone’s busy, and law firms don’t necessarily want to like dive so deep into marketing, but then get someone that really loves marketing.

Teresa Diep (40:42):

I think finding out what your goals are from the beginning to know what type of person to hire is really key, you know? Uh, and knowing what your budget is for that. Because some firms don’t leave a budget for marketing, surprisingly enough. They don’t see that as a valid expense to keep their doors open when it’s probably one of the most important things that you should be spending your money on if you want to keep your firm going.

Maria Monroy (41:08):

Yeah. Even if you’re just a purely like referral-based firm, the clients that you help, you should be in front of those clients. Once they ha — that case has been settled, you know, whatever — went to trial, whatever the case is. Or maybe even if, like, you couldn’t work with them, I would stay in front of them, whether it’s through a newsletter or social media. Like one of the things I hear from lawyers that do social media is that the referrals from prior clients went up when they started doing social media.

Teresa Diep (41:40):

Oh, that’s great.

Maria Monroy (41:41):

Yeah. Because now they’re top of mind.

Teresa Diep (41:43):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (41:44):

Someone’s scrolling through Facebook and they see them — or on whatever platform it is, and then now their friend is in a car accident. They’re like, “Oh, well, I know this great lawyer,” because they literally just saw them.

Teresa Diep (41:52):

Yep.

Maria Monroy (41:53):

So I think that’s, like, the other hidden benefit of social. It doesn’t even necessarily have to be to get new clients, but what about the clients that were your clients?

Teresa Diep (41:56):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (41:57):

And if they were happy, are they referring you cases? And if they’re not, why is that?

Teresa Diep (41:59):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (42:00):

Like, I didn’t know swag bags were a thing in LA.

Teresa Diep (42:02):

Oh yeah.

Maria Monroy (42:03):

What the hell is this? I, I need to find out, and maybe somebody can comment or send me a DM.

Teresa Diep (42:05)
I call them onboarding packets, because I feel like it’s, when you onboard a new client, you’ve given them something that they can use, and it’s a sense of, like, friendship. When you give somebody something, it’s like a, a show of friendship, right?

Maria Monroy (42:38):

Yeah. Like here’s a gift, right?

Teresa Diep (42:40):

This is something else that the marketing person could handle.

Maria Monroy (42:42):

Right?

Teresa Diep (42:43):

Absolutely.

Maria Monroy (42:44):

Like what cool things are out there that are useful that you could put in the swag bag, right?

Teresa Diep (42:46):

Right.

Maria Monroy (42:47):

Or even, like, doing videos. Like, what I find funny is, like, I would have thought that firms would be doing videos, like, unboxing their onboarding box or bag,

Teresa Diep (43:00):

Right.

Maria Monroy (43:01):

And I think they don’t do it ‘cause they don’t want the competitor to know what they have.

Teresa Diep (43:03):

Right.

Maria Monroy (43:04):

However, what I feel like your potential clients are seeing them, they’re like, oh, that is so cool.

Teresa Diep (43:05):

Yeah.

Maria Monroy (43:06):

Because they probably think it’s unique to you. Clearly everyone in LA does this. I didn’t know.

Teresa Diep (43:10):

I mean, it’s also, you know, great advertising for you, too.

Maria Monroy (43:12):

Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Teresa Diep (43:15):

Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me. This was fun.

Maria Monroy (43:17):

Thank you so much to Teresa Diep for everything she shared with us today. If you found the story valuable, please share it with someone you want to see succeed, and subscribe so you never miss an episode. And leave a five star review. It goes a long way to help others discover the show. Catch us next week on Tip the Scales with me, Maria Monroy, president of LawRank. Hear how the best in the business broke out of limiting beliefs, overcame adversity, and built a thriving, purpose-driven business in the process.